Mrs M
yoda76GAY BOOKS FOR FIVE YEAR OLDS?
February 12th 2007 00:43
Parents in the United States have sued a school for violating their parental rights when homosexuality was discussed in the classroom.
Here’s the link to the article on smh.com.au
But here is a summation of the article.
The parents claim that the school violated their rights to teach their own morals to their children.
The school claims that teaching diversity is a “legitimate state interest” and parents “don't have the right to dictate to the public school system what their children can be exposed to in the way of ideas”.
The parents say they do not want to dictate curriculum, they just want to be informed and have the option of taking the children out of class when homosexuality is being discussed because it goes against their religious beliefs.
The school says this is a logistical nightmare because they cannot predict with any certainty when the subject of homosexuality will come up in class. The school allows parents to excuse their children from sex education classes but the problem regarding the subject of homosexuality is that is also comes up in ‘current events classes’ which does not come under the ‘your child may be excused from this class’ rule.
The parents claim that this is “a form of propaganda” and they fear their children will be brainwashed.
Do you the parents have a right, because of religious beliefs, to demand that their child is not taught about homosexuality? Does the school, which is part of the public school system, insist that every child be taught what is in the ‘state’s interest’?
Is this a form of propaganda? Will the children be brainwashed?
Personally I am all for teaching diversity. What do you think?
Here’s the link to the article on smh.com.au
But here is a summation of the article.
The parents claim that the school violated their rights to teach their own morals to their children.
The school claims that teaching diversity is a “legitimate state interest” and parents “don't have the right to dictate to the public school system what their children can be exposed to in the way of ideas”.
The parents say they do not want to dictate curriculum, they just want to be informed and have the option of taking the children out of class when homosexuality is being discussed because it goes against their religious beliefs.
The school says this is a logistical nightmare because they cannot predict with any certainty when the subject of homosexuality will come up in class. The school allows parents to excuse their children from sex education classes but the problem regarding the subject of homosexuality is that is also comes up in ‘current events classes’ which does not come under the ‘your child may be excused from this class’ rule.
The parents claim that this is “a form of propaganda” and they fear their children will be brainwashed.
Do you the parents have a right, because of religious beliefs, to demand that their child is not taught about homosexuality? Does the school, which is part of the public school system, insist that every child be taught what is in the ‘state’s interest’?
Is this a form of propaganda? Will the children be brainwashed?
Personally I am all for teaching diversity. What do you think?
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Comment by yoda76
The Tube Blog
Comment by Cibbuano
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On the other hand, I'd hate for that school to be using that book solely because it's a gay children's book..
Comment by Ash
Australian Traveller
Flashes of memories
Interesting questions there - why would you not want your child to be taught these things, especially considering the world that we live in these days? Surely as a parent you would want your child to learn that the world is made up of diverse people and that by not understanding the facts makes those people feel isolated and unworthy of acceptance? By banishing these things more often than not it makes the child even more eager to find out more about it - tasting the forbidden fruit and all. Not that I know too much about what 5 year olds know these days it does seem a little young however they are saying that it is due to religious beliefs. Does that mean that even if the child was at an age where they were old enough to process these facts fully they would still remove them from the class?
Talk about being brainwashed - that is a little hypocritical taking into consideration that they are really brainwashing their children by denying them the right to the facts on these subjects.
As for removing your child from sex education classes - oh my word, get real!
interesting....
ash
Comment by Damo
For the Sake of Argument
My Apologetics
5 year olds are too young to deal with the subject matter of sexual identity and values. Parents are unltimately responsible for the values that their children are being taught. Parents pay the taxes and taxes pay the teaches. The teachers are their to educate the children on behalf of the parents. It is a position of trust.
The issue of “legitimate state interest” is very shakey and begs the question: Who decides what is the state interest in this case? Do the teachers decide? Also why is important to expose young children to a set of controversial values and then chose a side?
In short the issuing of the book and the authority of the teacher adds weight to a set of values that they are giving to the children. The parents disagree with this set of value and have legitimate reason to question the motives and agenda of distributing such material to 5 year olds.
Comment by Luke (from another computer)
You know, the reason schools need to teach this stuff is because racism and homophobia is taught in the home... if this cycle is ever to be broken then this is the best way to do it (besides taking children away from their biological parents). It's only natural that bigots should kick up a stink because their children are being taught NOT to be bigots. Fuck the complainers.
Comment by Ahmed
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I dn't see it as acceptable, I think, in all honesty, the concept of sex should be introduced by parents, schools can take over and fill in the gaps, but the damn concept has to be directly taught by parents. It is such an intimate thing, it isn't the kind of thing you read out of a bloody book for five year olds.
Also just another thing, it isn't something you teach five year olds, let them grow up a bit. I'd say wait until 10, slightly before puberty and all. I'm no expert, but it still would be better than teachin a five year old about that stuff.
Comment by Adele
Biology News
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Five-year-olds want to know about the world around them. If there was a kid in that classroom with a gay couple as parents, then it becomes a relevant topic. Otherwise, it's unnecessary information. Likewise, if there were no kids in the class with parents who had gone through divorce, then divorce would not be a relevant topic.
It really does have to do with the age of the kids.
Comment by Luke (from another computer)
At some of the places I've worked we get picture books that depict families made up of two mums or two dads (IE. Gay couples)... they're designed just to show children with gay parents stories that show a family dynamic similar to their own family. I'm assuming the book in question is a book along these lines, there's nothing dubious about these books... they're about kids building sandcastles and cubbyhouses and stuff, the only different is that when their parents feature in the narrative it isn't your standard 'mum an dad' couple. I see no harm in 5 year olds reading books like this, it's educational in a way that it shows kids a family dynamic like this isn't neccessarily wrong and if they come across a kid their own age who has two mums or two dads, then that kid isn't going to be ostracised or made fun of due to their peers being ignorant.
Comment by Damo
For the Sake of Argument
My Apologetics
I do have 5 children myself.
Comment by Ahmed
techy.Bytes
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Comment by Adele
Biology News
Lost Fanatic
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Aha, you approach this topic through experience.
Comment by JoshZ
A Simple Christian
At least in this case the parents did want some personal responsibility over what their kids were being taught. They may not have agreed with the content of what was being taught, but they wanted to know and were concerned with their children's education.
JZ
Comment by Brenton
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- to the depth appropriate
- as far as kids are wanting to explore it.
You can say - oh well what about teaching about pedophila? That's wrong? But I saw a giddy foanna stranger danger book, with nasty Mr Snake (a pedophile if i ever saw one) and tyhat was the depth nessercarry.
I have to say, the mild crap that peopel claim is gay propoganda is 90% bullshit. Playschool for example NEVER mention gayness. just said 'two mummies'. Could have been celebate for all the kid knew.
Storm in a teacup. Stop being so scared of teachers.
(Hint - this means read less Daily Telegraph and Courier Mail)
Comment by Damo
For the Sake of Argument
My Apologetics
Several years ago when there was a Glenroy High School one of the teachers caused a storm when told her twelve year old students that it was okay for adults to have sex with minors. The storm in the press was all over the place and the union took the teachers side on the grounds of free speech. After a huge public debate it was agreed that the woman should not be teaching minors. "Why does the world have to bend over to cater for one warped teacher" was the most famous quote.
These days there would no hesitation in removing a teacher who even hinted as much.
We may hate the concept of morality and values but we are trapped by them.
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
Comment by Luke (from another computer)
Comment by Ahmed
techy.Bytes
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holy crap, you just did a post about bolt!? damn, he is the jerk who writes for the herald sun, i remember 'while iraq triumphantly goes on to build a democarcy', OMG I so wanna call him on that one
Comment by yoda76
The Tube Blog
Should I as a parent have the right to decide when I introduce certain topics to my children, when I feel they are ready and able to understand? Absolutely.
I don't want to take away the right for same sex couples to do as they please, just as I don't expect anyone to take away my right to raise my children as I see fit.
Comment by Luke
Book Club
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Cane Toad Warrior
Comment by Ahmed
techy.Bytes
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Little Green Foosballs
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Should kids be exposed to porn magazines if it is part of life? I know it is an exaggerated question, but it really comes down to the same thing doesn't it? Teaching kids something they are not ready for is not good.
In the US a mother and her boyfriend were convicted of child neglect because they let their 9 year old daughter watch them having sex. The justification was that they were letting her see what sex was all about. They were being 'open' with the child.
People defend it reasoning that the same parents who see this in disgust let their kids see violent acts, the key thing is those violent acts are happening on the television and they never have any direct application in their lives. Terminator is pure fictional, two people having sex on TV is real, so theres something to take away from it other than metaphorical lessons.
It's true enough that it is good to be open, but there is such a thing as teach and let learn rather than show and let learn. Sometimes by direct example, but showing a child a shocking thing like that (well it's shocking for a 9 year old anyway) could damage the way she looks at sex. I'm not saying it definately will, and I'm not saying it definately will for all kids, but just looking at it from perspective. To put it into perspective it would be like showing a post-mortem to someone who has never seen the insides of the human body, you don't know if it will shock him or not, now imagine that same person is a 9 year old child, how will she be able to consent to it and deal with it proper, emotionally speaking?
Comment by Candice
Comment by Anonymous
Its all bullshit anyway.
Comment by Mrs M
Mum's Word
Also, what good is it taking the kid out of class. The rest of the class will hear this story, they will all talk about it subsequently the "removed" child will get second hand information. How is that going to help?
My other (and biggest) motivation for teaching my children about homosexuality is, what if one of my children is gay. I would not want them to think that they could not come to me and tell me, I would not want to think that there is something wrong with them. As a parent, that would break my heart.
I'll try and get through everyone's comments.
Hi Cibby,
What the book's story is, is a key element that is missing. It would certainly help sway the argument one way or the other.
Hi Ash,
Yes, I think children do need to learn about the diverse world we live in. I also think if you take away the mystery of it then you take away the fear or the power any topic can have and generate.
I agree about the brainwashing comment. You can't brainwash someone if you are giving them a them information of all sides of a story. That is giving the power to think.
Hi Damo,
We are guided by values and morals - it's all we have. For me it is less about homosexuality but teaching tolerance and diversity. I don't want my children to think that homosexuality is odd. I just want them to think that it is another way to live. I want to take away the stigma that comes later in life. And it will come. There will always be people that don't agree with homosexuality.
I don't think my 5 year old daughter would understand homosexuality. She'll be a little quizzical about someone having 2 mummies or 2 daddies but I think she'll leave it at that. I think it is someone that she will have in her mind until she is given another piece of information like a puzzle will put it all together. But every kid is different.
Too much information too soon I think is unnecessary and damaging. What makes it controversial is the adult spin on things. My daughter today told me about her friend whose parents are divorced. "They don't live together because they don't love each other anymore." So simple. But we all know that divorce is not simple.
What is in the 'interest of the state' - anything that brings disharmony wouldn't be in the interest of the state. Parent suing schools wouldn't be in the interest of the state - neither are hate crimes.
We pay teachers, yes. But I also paid my gynecologist to deliver my baby on my behalf. Do I tell him how to do his job? Yes, but within limits.
Hi Luke,
I agree that parents should choose their schools but I think I'd stop short of saying those who home school are freaks
I would have thought that if you are that into your faith then you would send your kids to some sort of religious school, but I don't know their circumstances. A public school does have to cater for everyone to the best of their ability without ostracizing anyone. Can't complain about that. It wouldn't be christian.
I also agree, that I don't think picture books do any harm. I'm not quite sure how much they help, but if they don't do any harm, then why not give it a go.
Hi Ahmed,
Teaching five years olds about sex as we understand it is a bit much. But they are curious about the body. My 5 year old daughter and 3 year old son often laugh at each others "front bottoms".
Teaching my children that there are different kinds of families I don't think is asking too much. They don't make the leap, I don't think.
They understand that to make a baby needs a mummy and daddy but what happens after that to form a family is a different story.
As for parents being the first teacher about these things, well that would be ideal but some parents are crap at their job. The school then needs to pick up the slack.
birds and bees? my daughter has already asked how babies are made. And she hasn't been exposed to anything sexual. Kids will be curious, you can't control that.
Hi Adele,
Yes absolutely. My daughter has a friend whose parents are divorced and because of that we have discussed it. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't have raised it with her just yet.
But is it unnecessary information even if they don't know of a kid who has gay parents or divorced parents? This is the question I ask myself. When is the right time? Should we arm them with a little bit of information so when the subject does come up they are not overwhelmed or just wait until it comes up? Depends on the subject really.
Hi JoshZ,
As a parent, if there was a subject that concerned me I would be talking to the teacher, asking questions. Be armed with knowledge. Then talk to my child and discuss things further with them. Not remove them from it all together.
We are all influenced by so many things and so many people. Take an interest in your child's education, of course, but it just doesn't seem to be a positive step, to remove children from class and sue the school to boot. What is that teaching the children?
Hi Brenton,
Glad you raised the Play School example. I remember that episode. Play school is aimed at the under 5's and when my daughter saw that episode she didn't even register the "2 mummies".
Hi Kleonaptra,
Your story just keeps getting more and more interesting
There's a public school on Crown Street and I wonder where these kids live and what do they see. I wonder if they think that Darlinghurst is a weird place to live in?
I remember when I was 12 I had to visit my dying uncle in St Vincent's hospital everyday for 6 months. So I saw some 'weird and wonderful' things down Oxford Street. I don't think I'm scarred by it.
Hi Candice,
Yes, teaching concepts that are age appropriate is vital and should be the driving factor.
Hi yoda76,
Absolutely parents have the right to raise their child as they see fit, but I know that we are not the only influences in my children's lives. I also know that I am not a teacher, if I thought I could do the best teaching job, I wouldn't send my kids to school to begin with.
Thanks everyone for the fantastic response.
Love & stuff
Mrs M
Comment by Mrs M
Mum's Word
So where do we go to learn about and discuss diversity if not at school?
Or is it not necessary to discuss it?
Mrs M
Comment by Brenton
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Comment by postmoderncritic
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From an Amazon.com review of King and King:
"In this postmodern fractured fairy tale, a worn-out and badly beleaguered Queen is ready for retirement. After many hours of nagging, the crown prince, who "never cared much for princesses," finally caves in and agrees to wed in order to ascend the throne. Their search for a suitable bride extends far and wide, but none of the eligible princesses strikes the Prince's fancy, until Princess Madeleine shows up. The Prince is immediately smitten- with her brother, Prince Lee. The wedding is "very special," the Queen settles down on a chaise lounge in the sun, and everyone lives happily ever after. Originally published in the Netherlands, this is a commendable fledgling effort with good intentions toward its subject matter. Unfortunately, though, the book is hobbled by thin characterization and ugly artwork; the homosexual prince comes across as fragile and languid, while the dour, matronly queen is a dead ringer for England's Victoria at her aesthetic worst. Some of the details in the artwork are interesting, including the "crown kitty" performing antics in the periphery. However, that isn't enough to compensate for page after page of cluttered, disjointed, ill-conceived art. The book does present same-sex marriage as a viable, acceptable way of life within an immediately recognizable narrative form, the fairy tale. However, those looking for picture books about alternative lifestyles may want to keep looking for a barrier-breaking classic on the subject."
Gay and postmodern? Not that unlikely, is it? ;o)
It sounds kind of cute, albeit cacaphonic...
Hi again Ash,
I hope to, respectfully, ask you a few questions when I return to Orble...
The discussion here is very tempting, but it's almost 4am so I must retire.
Thank you for prompting such interesting discussion Mrs M!
Comment by Bhumika
Political Minds
Comment by Ash
Australian Traveller
Flashes of memories
You may respectfully ask anything you like PMC and I shall respectfully answer as best I can. I hope you are well.
Comment by Francis
Passionate Apathy
If it's that important to raise kids to be insular bigots then home-schooling is definitekly the way to go. Anyone up for an After-School Special about the dangers of sexual promiscuity among home-schooled kids?
Comment by Mrs M
Mum's Word
Thanks for finding that review. Shame about the artwork.
Gay and postmodern. We used to have a ball at uni trying to define post modern. I think at one stage one of our mates came up with 'post futuristic'.
Thanks for your comments.
Hi Bhumika,
Yes, sexuality should not be taught to five year olds but I think people jump to conclusions. Does teaching 5 year olds about different families automatically lead to a discussion about sexuality? Again, I think that's an adult point of view and an adult projecting their fear. If kids don't yet know about sex even in a heterosexual manner then why would their minds even go to homosexual relationships.
I think that they'll just be a bit confused about where how the baby got there because you need a man and a woman to make a baby. I think their focus will be on the baby and the family side of things, not the bedroom antics. Does that make sense?
Hi Francis,
Absolutely. I think that is spot on. Old habits die hard.
Thanks everyone for the visit and the comments.
Love & stuff
Mrs M
Comment by Damo
For the Sake of Argument
My Apologetics
Morality exist for all people but there are disagreements about what is moral.
Values exist for all people but there are disagreements about what are proper values.
Tollerance is just a word until it is put into context. What are we being specifically tollerant about?
Diversity is another word that needs a context to compair it with.
Harmony can exist when everyone is happy with a status quo. Floating with tide of social harmony does not always cut it for me. Only a corpse floats with the tide.
My concern is that one set of values is considered wrong simply because it counters another set of values. This is could be interpreted as forcing values that are repugnant to person. Anti-freedom of conscience?
Also this does not take into account the diversity of views because it excludes the parents views on what they see as the best interests of the child.
Questioning the legitimacy of a lifestyle does not translate to hate crime. Otherwise people of different religions and politics are all guilty of the same hate crimes.
'In the interest of the state' or 'In the national Interest' are terms I find chilling. Historically they have been used to justify all form of oppression. I would argue that we are not here to serve any 'national interest' that would make us a bound to a set of values that we cannot agree to.
Finally this sort of fight over state rights verses the rights of individuals has been going on since history began. Have a read of Antigone by Sophocles and you'll know what I mean. Antigone defies the proclamed law to bury her dead brother.
Comment by Mrs M
Mum's Word
Okay let's go. Enough can never be said. That's the beauty of it.
Morals and values are intangibles and variable. Yes. But there are some fundamental morals and values that is safe to say we all abide by.
'Interest of the state' yes can be used as a tool to perpetrate oppression. John Howard has introduced some scary "terror laws" in the "interest of the state".
But I imagine it is in the interest of the state to fairly represent all it's members of society.
I don't particularly like the word tolerant because it implies one party has power over another. "I tolerate you. I accept you". But to this day I haven't found another word.
Diversity needs definition. Sure. It is a loose term that applies to many facets of our society. Culture, language, religion, family, sexuality, socio-economic status the list goes on.
Accepting diversity can only be a good thing. After all we generally fear the thing we understand the least. Accepting diversity doesn't necessarily mean it undermines your particular value system.
I don't know what these particular parents are going to teach their children about homosexuality. It seems fairly obvious because of their religious beliefs they are going to teach them that homosexuality is wrong. Whether they endorse "gay bashings" I don't know - perhaps that is a leap of logic.
I don't understand why the parents can't work with the school instead of shutting down the subject. Again, I'm speculating.
Personally I have a problem with how the church views homosexuality. I do. It goes against my value system. Homosexuality is not just about sex. It is about people - not just a sexual act. You can't lump it in the same category as murder and stealing and call them all sins.
I cannot in all good conscience condemn homosexuality.
I don't condemn those who lead their life guided by their faith. Faith is a fantastic thing to have.
Okay, that said, where does that all fit into teaching my children. When and how?
As much as we would like to think that we have absolute control over what our children learn and when, I think is naive.
I think back to my childhood and I sometimes think that if my parents knew what I got up to, what I talked about that would be floored. If that sort of thing is inevitable, why not introduce these concepts in a formalised way so any confusion is eliminated.
Can't we trust teachers to know something about teaching our children. But yes, i suppose when you are trying to teach subjects and mix it in with the bible, it will be difficult.
What about the big bang theory? Will these parents try to exclude these kids from science because God created Earth?
There was a time when communities raised children together with parents. When did that break down?
Damo, I think you have just given me food for thought for my next post. Thank you.
Love & stuff
Mrs M
Comment by Damo
For the Sake of Argument
My Apologetics
Comment by Wendi
That was an offensive statement. Why are people who choose to homeschool their children "freaks"?
In relation to the subject at hand, it's a fine line. Many children in public schools do come from "alternative" family lifestyles and those lifestyles are going to be encountered by the other students at some point - Parent Teacher conferences, school plays, field trips, etc. I think at those times, the subject would naturally be addressed and "delicate" explanations offered. However, I believe reading books about it to five-year-olds is a bit extreme.
I'm all for diversity and acceptance, but I believe we can teach these things without such direct methods where parents can be offended or feel thwarted in regard to their own morals or religious practices.
Comment by Mrs M
Mum's Word
Thanks for that
Hi Wendi,
There is something to be said for discussions to come about naturally - not forcing an issue. It is a fine line.
Thanks for the visit and the comments.
Love & stuff
Mrs M
Comment by DuskDevi
Rucks and Rolls
Rugby World Cup 2007
Propaganda is a useful tool to propagate ignorance....and ignorance is a powerful commodity. Governments come to power on the strength of it.
I really don't have much to say nor add because all points have merit and reason and have been said (and I'm having a bad brain day today!)...I do agree with what Francis says;
Not just "easier" but preferred.
I have had to handle this 'issue' and it only became an issue when intolerance raised it's misguided head.
Man...that was annoying.
Why is that the people who think they know best, make things worse?
I guess we can all hope that in the end diversity is a natural thought process and not a debatable fact.
Hope you're well Mrs M
Dusk
Comment by Mrs M
Mum's Word
Yes, this has been an interesting discussion
Agree with you about diversity being a natural thought process. Different isn't bad, different isn't evil, different is what makes the world an interesting place.
Different is what makes my mind think. Different enables me to learn new things.
Thanks for the visit and the comments.
Love & stuff
Mrs M