Mrs M
yoda76WHEN IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH?
March 5th 2007 00:02
A couple of weeks ago I watched a documentary about growing old. It stated that globally we have an ageing population that is going to explode in the imminent future. In the United States it was estimated that 70 million people will fall into the “senior citizen” category.
Here in Australia, within the next 40 years, 25% of Australia’s population will be aged 65 and over. This is a concern for politicians because of the strain that will be placed on the health system.
This documentary showed the elderly in nursing homes; elderly confined to their own homes with visits from a community nurse; and elderly ‘fortunate’ enough to have a family member looking after them.
The running theme throughout the entire documentary was, when is enough, enough and let the elderly die? At what point do you stop treating conditions that are potentially fatal if left untreated?
One doctor pointed out these days a bout of pneumonia is treatable but at what cost at the other end? You may live longer, but you may end up with dementia; or end up with chronic pain from arthritis. It very much is a question about the quality of life for the elderly; those in their late 80’s and over.
Some of the elderly in this documentary seemed so helpless it was difficult to watch. One woman acknowledged that her mother probably was better off dead but she could not bear to say goodbye - so she continued to treat her ailments.
My father broke his right heel 2 weeks ago. He is 73. He has never had a broken bone in his life and for his age he looks good and is very active. I wonder if this is the beginning of the end for him.
We all know that broken bones in the elderly are serious. There complications that could arise from my father’s broken heel if it doesn’t mend properly. If that is the case, he could need surgery. The elderly take far longer to recover from surgery and often never 100% recover to lead the same life they had before.
If my father’s heel doesn’t mend 100% and becomes difficult to walk on, then by default, he will become less active. If he becomes less active he will lose muscle strength and fitness and this could lead to further health problems.
A broken heel seems simple enough to fix, but what about next time? How do you know when to just let nature takes its course?
With so many people have children later in life, grandparents don’t get to spend a lot of time with their grandchildren. Is that a good enough reason to try and keep them alive for as long as possible?
Here in Australia, within the next 40 years, 25% of Australia’s population will be aged 65 and over. This is a concern for politicians because of the strain that will be placed on the health system.
This documentary showed the elderly in nursing homes; elderly confined to their own homes with visits from a community nurse; and elderly ‘fortunate’ enough to have a family member looking after them.
The running theme throughout the entire documentary was, when is enough, enough and let the elderly die? At what point do you stop treating conditions that are potentially fatal if left untreated?
One doctor pointed out these days a bout of pneumonia is treatable but at what cost at the other end? You may live longer, but you may end up with dementia; or end up with chronic pain from arthritis. It very much is a question about the quality of life for the elderly; those in their late 80’s and over.
Some of the elderly in this documentary seemed so helpless it was difficult to watch. One woman acknowledged that her mother probably was better off dead but she could not bear to say goodbye - so she continued to treat her ailments.
My father broke his right heel 2 weeks ago. He is 73. He has never had a broken bone in his life and for his age he looks good and is very active. I wonder if this is the beginning of the end for him.
We all know that broken bones in the elderly are serious. There complications that could arise from my father’s broken heel if it doesn’t mend properly. If that is the case, he could need surgery. The elderly take far longer to recover from surgery and often never 100% recover to lead the same life they had before.
If my father’s heel doesn’t mend 100% and becomes difficult to walk on, then by default, he will become less active. If he becomes less active he will lose muscle strength and fitness and this could lead to further health problems.
A broken heel seems simple enough to fix, but what about next time? How do you know when to just let nature takes its course?
With so many people have children later in life, grandparents don’t get to spend a lot of time with their grandchildren. Is that a good enough reason to try and keep them alive for as long as possible?
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Comment by DuskDevi
Rugby World Cup 2007
Woah. Hard question.
And I've only had 3 cups of coffee...
I don't know....but at times...nature seems unnatural.
I hope your father heals well.
(and no...pun not intended...but the sentiment is)
Be well Mrs M
Dusk
Comment by Damo
'The two will do' campagn basically did the ground work to lead to this issue. People have less children. people live longer, people retire, some one has to pay the taxes for the retirees.
Resentment is there for the harvesting. just as it is with foreign devils, migrants and refugees.
It only takes a Pauline Hanson style of anti old person and dying becomes a duty.
Comment by Mrs M
Mum's Word
Thanks for the sentiment. And yes, it is hard question, one that I certainly don't the answer to.
Hi Damo,
I'm a little unsure whether you are saying that I sound like Pauline Hanson or society at large has taken a Pauline Hanson style approach to the elderly.
Because I for one, do not in any way resent the elderly for simply being. That wasn't the purpose of my post. I have great respect for the elderly because they all help build this country and just because they are not physically "contributing" to society in their old age, certainly does not mean that we should euthanise the over 85's. I think they are fantastic. As a little girl I love visiting the old couple next door because the stories they told were mesmerising.
Watching this documentary it just seemed so cruel to keep some of these people alive, just because medical science could.
Yes, Australia does have an ageing population and I don't mind my taxes helping out the elderly - like I said, I have great respect and do believe I owe them. I don't agree with the current trend of society of looking after your own ie you want to have kids you pay for them. The same applies for the elderly.
The doctor in the documentary implied that we haven't thought it through. Medical advances have come so far that we haven't thought about the implication of keeping people alive longer. It seemed to me that we may be living longer, but we certainly aren't healthier - in those twilight years.
The documentary said that in the US only 50 new geriatric doctors were currently studying at college. That's nothing compared to how elderly there will be.
It also said that you are more likely to be looked after a family member if you have 3 or more daughters. Well like you said Damo, people have started to have 2 children only - so right there the maths is all wrong.
You can never legislate when it is time to let a loved one die - it will always be a personal choice - but this definitely is a societal issue.
Thanks for the visit and the comments.
Love & stuff
Mrs M
Comment by Damo
My comment were not direted at you but at the general issue.
I think that from time to time we have documantary and books to alert us to an issue, which is fine by me.
We can seprate treatment into natural means of support and unnatural means of support. What may seem like a simple solution on the surface can often create more problems than it solves.
We never like to think outside the square of the single dimension answer. The single dimension asks how to we reduce the old when they become too high in numbers?( I see the ghost Malthus rising from his grave again in this one.) However the solution may have to do with why people choose not to have children at an earlier age and immigrations policies. Why do young professional singles migrants get priority over a family with children?
Letting someone go is an an issue that can go in any direction, depending upon who is driving it. Ideologies drive the stance some people take and emotions can be used as weapons. A the height of the Eugenic debate before WW2 similar arguements were floated, even Kelloge(inventer of Corn Flakes) was a fan of Eugenics.
Many lived off Nietzsche's words: "Many people live too long... few not long enough...Die at the right time..."
How does some one die at the right time? And who decides who lives too long? What happens if that rich, decrepid and nasty aunt just won't die in time? Is someone going to help her on the way for the good of the family? Perhaps we will put a price tag on life support, when your credits run out, so does the oxygen.
I think people are thinking about mortality before thinking about living.
My thoughts are that what ever time we have with the people we love is too short and before we know it they are gone.
Comment by katyzzz
Photography Tips
MS Paint Art
Provided they are of sound mind and not in a very debilitated condition, when they die is up to God and them.
Any alternative is murder, so let's not get too enthusiastic about "popping" them off and I know that you don't.
Life is precious, THEY wish to preserve it.
It would be most unlikely that your dad did not make a good recovery.
Many still worship life even with some quite severe disabilities. It is not our choice. Unless some folks want to go to prison, and that's worse.
katyzzz...Love and stuff
Comment by Mrs M
Mum's Word
At the end of the day that is pretty much what it comes down to.
Hi katyzzz,
There was this one woman in the documentary who was 94 and she looked fantastic. She had her wits about her and was moving quite well. She died two weeks later of a heart attack. Her wish was to live as long as she could. She made it known that she wanted to be saved if she could be - but obviously her time was up.
There was another man who was dying of lung cancer. He decided not to have it treated and to just let it kill him.
Such amazing people and amazing stories - and it is something that we all have to think about for ourselves.
Thanks for the visit and the comments.
Love & stuff
Mrs M
Comment by Candice
A hot topic for discussion ... it's a hard one to answer or give opinion on. But of course we're not going to let our loved ones die when they can be healed, no matter what the outcome.
There was another man who was dying of lung cancer. He decided not to have it treated and to just let it kill him.
Your last comment was most apt I thought - it's really up to the person themselves to decide what they want, if they're capable.
Comment by AnthonyB
This is a difficult thing to think about. I am in the fortunate and unfortunate position of having a grandfather who is quite well, but believes he is unwell. It is very annoying and he is constantly asking for poison as birthday and christmas presents. He's such a whinger.
He has diabetes and mild muscular pain, but he's fully overcome breast cancer, regained strength in his right arm and he's looking better than ever. I think sometimes it would easier to deal with if he actually had something to complain about.
So what do I do? He's in good condition, but how do I know if he's on his death bed? Who actually knows if he's sick or well, if he's always complaining...
I think he needs to be put in a home in 10 years time and that way someone can look after him properly. Unfortunately, I lost the wrong grandfather at a young age. The good one was taken by a bout of Alzheimer's at just 60. I still wonder what may have happened if I grew up with the good one and the bad one died...
Great post. It really made me think...
- Anthony
Comment by David
You ask:
At what point do you stop treating conditions that are potentially fatal if left untreated?
To me, only when it is the person's desire for such to be the case ... As in, when they are prepared to die of natural causes ... suffer everything that goes with such a cruel type of death (for both the person and the person(s) [loved ones] witnessing it ...
Otherwise, if the person wanted to cling to life, and indicated this, I would accomodate the person's wishes ... I don't find either of these two desires wrong ...
As to asking me to end their life with 'unnatural causes' ... ? ... I'm not going there as to why I wouldn't do this ... It's a matter of Faith... and I'm doing my best to avoid expressing my views on such matters on other people's blogs ....
I'd just like to add this:
I loved this:
elderly ‘fortunate’ enough to have a family member looking after them.
David ...
Comment by MaaUpma
Indus Guru
Vastu - The Indian Science of Dwelling
EGurumantra - Demystifying India
A lot has been already written on both sides of the issue. I just want to share an Indian Culture.
In India, culturally and traditionally, children look after parents after the parents retire from work. My grandfather had 4 sons and he used to distribute his year staying with each one of them.
These days things are changing and with nuclear families and work pressure of children and their spouses, parents are preferring to stay separate from their children. But whenever, in need, the Indian Child takes good care of parents.
Maa Upma
Comment by Sarah White
coolgirlsar to the rescue
One Too Many Chocolate Bars
I'm lucky in that I still have my two nans alive and both in their 80's. You couldn't get two different looks on old age with their opinions though. My Mother's Mum is just ready to die, I constantly have her on the phone saying she wishes she wouldn't wake up in the morning, it's her time to go. I don't want her to 'go' though. My other Nan who is a similar age loves life, she appreciates spending the time with her grand and great grand children (not that my other nan doesn't) and is the one who will offer to take the hours journey to come and visit you.
I don't know what the answer to the question is. I don't want my Nan's to suffer but at the same time I can't face the thought of them in my life.
I hope your fathers' feet heal ok.
Take Care.
Sarah.
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
My best friend is an RN at an aged care home - the dementia ward. I visited once. You could say these people dont have a choice, as they are not in their right minds, but they were so happy, so comfortable, sitting around having tea and bikkkis. One guy does nothing but sleep, they have to give him a shove every now and then to make sure hes still with them. You could say he has no quality of life, but he dreams - he calls out names of horses he used to own, and gets angry when woken up! Most of them just sing songs and have a great time. I felt sorry for some who seemed to be desperately chasing after their lost minds - eternally frustrated and trapped.
My only experience with this issue(all grandparents died when i was about one) is my old horse. He was old when I got him in primary school, and was put to sleep in 2004. He'd suffered so much throughout his life, but had never once given up. With a permanently bung foot always causing him pain and plenty of other problems, he battled on just for one more day standing in the sun. Even after he told me he was ready(couldnt decide which leg to limp on anymore - none could support his weight) he changed his mind when the vet arrived!
Hard topic Mrs M, you always make me think.
Comment by Mrs M
Mum's Word
I think this is when conflict arises. When someone wants to go but one can't be to let go.
Hi Anthony,
Hope I didn't hit you too hard. My dad complains like that too. Whenever he had a stomach ache he thinks it's cancer. Drives us nuts.
I'm sorry to hear that you didn't get as much time as you wanted with your grandfather.
Mr M's Italian grandmother never wanted us to take her to hospital. Because that's where you go to die. No matter how many times it was explained that not all people died there. Well the one time she went to hospital (after suffering a heart attack) she died there. If we all end up in heaven, we're all going to have an eternity of "I told you so".
Hi David,
I agree with you on this.
I would hate to be put in this position because I kept on insisting that the "natural causes" be cured. You can go on living but say you suffer from arthritis - that isn't going to kill you but the pain sometimes feels like it just might. And you don't want anymore pain - but you're not dying of anything. It is such a hard thing to have to think about.
I put fortunate in inverted commas because I often wonder if I would be the best person to look after my father even though he expects his children to look after him.
Hi Maa Upma,
I from a Greek background and my parents expect the same - the children look after the parents. But they also think that extended family should look after each other.
In Greece, my two cousins got married and moved in with my aunt and uncle. They simply extended the house to accommodate everyone. And that's how it is done.
But here in Australia, it is a little different.
Hi Sarah,
That's the dilemma we all face and the very reason we can never find a "right" answer.
Thank you for your well wishes
Hi Kleonaptra,
This difference between humans and animals is that we can help our animals if living seems too cruel. Such a difficult decision to make. Were you at peace with yourself one you had made it?
Thank you everyone for your visit and your comments. Very much appreciated.
Love & stuff
Mrs M
Comment by Kleonaptra
Kalikapsychosis
The night before the deed I said I would stay with him. I went out to the paddock in the night and he was CRYING in his sleep, moaning in pain. That was it. I knew, no matter how he fought, I couldnt let this go on. When the vet arrived he frisked and bolted like a young thing, pain forgotten like he had something to prove, but when he layed down with no pain, I saw the relief in his eyes.
I still miss him terribly and wonder if I had the right to do what I did, but aspects of his personality have appeared in my mares foals, and his old rug collected his hair - if you saw it youd swear it was made of horsehair - and not one hair has ever fallen out.
Go on, old friend. Be well in your new incarnation, move up the ladder, like I know you want to....
Comment by Mrs M
Mum's Word
Did you have the right to do what you did? I know that I don't have the right to tell you what to do - this is your pet, your friend, your family.
Love & stuff
Mrs M